Curse

Super Igor · Dec 13, 2008, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

Also seconding what Pocketmancer said. EVAS + minions makes for one of the best meat shields. Good for soaking up plenty of damage.

So...24 minions isnt enough for you? :P

Pocketmancer · Dec 13, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Where did I say that its crap without assassins promise? o___O

I said that it is generally crap because in most cases they switch targets after using one of their skills so you end up with random single target damage which kinda sucks. :P

Reread my sentence. You've taken it out of the context I've intended for it to be. And as far as I know and experienced, the Assassin doesn't change targets. It sticks with the same target until the target dies. Only then does the Assassin change targets.

Super Igor · Dec 14, 2008, 11:07 AM // 11:07

I expirienced it running around like crazy after making first hit or two and many other people expirienced that as well as far as I know.

Maybe, it was changed in a recent update but I didnt really check.

Thing I like about EVAS though is that it doesnt shadow step but teleports so you can force it thru walls. x)

Also, some people like upier say that if you give your d-way heroes resto spells they stop discording pretty much....complete BS. Done some testing yesterday and my heroes were spamming discord more often having heals on their bars that they were having prots :P !

beanerman_99 · Dec 15, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Pretty weak imo.

No dwayna's sorrow, weak attribute spreads, low on hexes, skills destributed badly, overkill on minions, lol, who would ever run two copies of bone minions and shamblings? Weak heal, no protection or hex removal at all, sols that you dont need killing stuff this fast.

I run this:

[build prof=N/Rt box][discord][animate bone minions][putrid bile][spirit light][protective was kaolai][mend body and soul][recovery][flesh of my flesh][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt box][discord][enfeebling blood][shadow of fear][rip enchantment][protective was kaolai][mend body and soul][life][flesh of my flesh][/build]
[build prof=N/Mo box][discord][animate bone minions][putrid bile][death nova][dwayna's sorrow][aegis][protective spirit][cure hex][/build]
-It has never failed me, +24 armor on two of the guys, strong party-wide healing to power through degen and pressure, two restos allow lower restoration spec that means all of these guys have 14 spec discords, dwayna's sorow, hex removal, near immunity to conditions, sufficient prot.

I have been reading this long thread now and I am still not sure what builds actually work. Sounds to me like most of them will and its just user preference.

That said I have some questions about the quoted post:

1) If Discord is the main damage dealing spell and you are relying on your heroes to cast the crap out of it...well how are they casting it if they are busy casting heals and other things to keep the party alive?

2) If you're using Monk henchmen do you need all the heals on your necros? Can you switch the /RT to another secondary or go full necro skills?

Also someone had posted an MM with Foul Feast and Infuse Condition. Some people said this was stupid for hex removal. But would the ability to suck up conditions and then transfer them to minions make the minions expire faster, thus triggering Death Novas? So its really not about hex removal its about making your minions die faster. Am I right on this or just way off base? I'm new to this 3 necro hero thing.

Eragon Zarroc · Dec 15, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

just mod up ur sabway to run hybrid discord elites. two people, 6 necros, shit dies. If in HM, may loook into a real person being monk if u have any trouble with healing.

beanerman_99 · Dec 15, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

so Discordway is only for 6 hero team?

Kenji [PURE] · Dec 17, 2008, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

so Discordway is only for 6 hero team?

It works fine for me in both HM and NM with only 3 heroes (and 4 hench). However, I've not tested it with just 3 in any elite areas.

Super Igor · Dec 20, 2008, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

1) If Discord is the main damage dealing spell and you are relying on your heroes to cast the crap out of it...well how are they casting it if they are busy casting heals and other things to keep the party alive?

Absolutely no problem with it! I actually noticed that they used discord more often than they did when I packed them with prots and other less spammable spells or just offense. In first case they spam prots in other they just run around...

Maybe its the cause of party staying more healthy thanks to ability to heal alot of damage party wide or bringing an ally to full hp quickly.

Quote:

2) If you're using Monk henchmen do you need all the heals on your necros? Can you switch the /RT to another secondary or go full necro skills?

I think you do, at least thats what I noticed. Monk henchmen are retarded! Heal they can give is usually not enough unless you run in some uber easy area and always run out of energy. They will just stand there do nothing when someone is under 50% health and make your discorders panic thats all.

I know there that trend going on guru made by upier and other such people (who in reality never vanquish and hate it) thats monk henchies are enough, but no, in any fairly harder vamnquish area they will suck with their runeless heals, bad build, low energy and health pool, poor AI and fact of being unable to control them.

Quote:

Also someone had posted an MM with Foul Feast and Infuse Condition. Some people said this was stupid for hex removal. But would the ability to suck up conditions and then transfer them to minions make the minions expire faster, thus triggering Death Novas? So its really not about hex removal its about making your minions die faster. Am I right on this or just way off base? I'm new to this 3 necro hero thing.

Kinda, yea but I dont think that its significant in making minions explode faster. That combo is good in condition heavy area when you have place to take it but really mbas works well in most cases to remove conditions from main characters and not that you run in uber condition heavy mobs that often.

Really, the build you quoted is pretty old. I have changed around what i run quite a bit since then (same idea but modified) and actually anded up tweaking my d-way quite a bit inbetween each area because when it works well in one it would suck at other. Example: one setup was pwning jade brotherhood hard but when I took it against gwen's charr it worked terrible.

Also, contrary to lot of people might say take sols, you have lower soul reaping usually and when you are stuck on a mob longer than you should be extra hp and enrgy is very hepful.

Flamur · Dec 22, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Click

Thats ownage....i think.
crappy Pvx.

the_jos · Dec 22, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

"If you're using Monk henchmen do you need all the heals on your necros? Can you switch the /RT to another secondary or go full necro skills?"

I think you do, at least thats what I noticed. Monk henchmen are retarded! Heal they can give is usually not enough unless you run in some uber easy area and always run out of energy. They will just stand there do nothing when someone is under 50% health and make your discorders panic thats all.

I know there that trend going on guru made by upier and other such people (who in reality never vanquish and hate it) thats monk henchies are enough, but no, in any fairly harder vamnquish area they will suck with their runeless heals, bad build, low energy and health pool, poor AI and fact of being unable to control them.

Well, I'm not one of the upier-such people and think the monk henchies will do most of the time.
I think I've played enough HM to make this statement.
However, you need to adjust your team to support this.
Discordway and Sabway are examples of generic builds that work about everywhere and with any profession for the human player. And even a retard can play and win with them.
This means their defensive power is way too high for a lot of areas or in the hands of experienced players.
But running Sab-/Discordway without the /Rt part would be somewhat foolish, since it relies on the one true weekness of healer AI: energy management.
The team build makes sure the healers have enough energy all the time.
I played Sabway and an altered version of Discord (run it since long before the craze began) and when I observer the teams health and deads it's too defensive.

The tradeoff is whether or not you want to waste precious controlable skillslots on something 'stupid' as healing.
You have 32 skillslots that you can control, are you sure you want to dedicate a fair portion of those to healing?

I still remember the comment of Bhavv who complained that we human players were inferior to his heroes and hench because he could not flag us in his wards. That's another way of handling things, just make sure the red bars don't go down so your bad AI healers waste less energy.
You can for example also achieve this with SY on a human warrior or paragon.

I know my choice. If I want a braindead team build I take my discord team.
If I want efficiency I take other far more offensive builds (depending on the area) and the monk hench. Because a dead foe isn't going to do any damage.

Super Igor · Dec 24, 2008, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Discordway is very far from generic in my expirience. Sometimes when facing foes that lack pressure but have huge damage spikes like jade bortherhood on hard mode or destroers which also have low defense you want to have prot to soak their damage on a protted target and then follow in with a kill on other hand with foes like gwen charrs on hm who dont have very huge damage but are great pressurers you need something which makes your red bars go up quickly.

Dunno whats more retarded, I think most retarded is believing that you would never need to even look at your hero bars when discording.

upier · Dec 25, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

I think you do, at least thats what I noticed. Monk henchmen are retarded! Heal they can give is usually not enough unless you run in some uber easy area and always run out of energy. They will just stand there do nothing when someone is under 50% health and make your discorders panic thats all.

I know there that trend going on guru made by upier and other such people (who in reality never vanquish and hate it) thats monk henchies are enough, but no, in any fairly harder vamnquish area they will suck with their runeless heals, bad build, low energy and health pool, poor AI and fact of being unable to control them.

You don't run monk hench because they would be godly.
You run monk hench because you need to fill up 4 slots with hench and other options are worse.

Look at what the hench are running and if there is a way to fix it.
I can't fix the fact that Devona won't stand still and kill things but she'll rather run away if someone sneezes at her. I can't fix the fact that Durnhy has a build that I wouldn't touch with a pole. I can't fix Kindle Arrows on a ranger when I want to run a physical team.
But I can run massive amounts of damage negation or effective damage dealing builds that reduce the pressure on the stupid healing hench.
They still aren't efficient.
But they are sufficient.

Give me full hero parties or an additional player to do everything I want - and I won't touch Menhi again. Until then, he is going to be one of the best options because I can negate his failures in a fairly easy way.

Smurf Minions · Dec 25, 2008, 01:33 PM // 13:33

You can run the one on the wiki with a 1 human, 3 hero and 4 hench (2 monk and 2 ele) anywhere. I changed it along the way, it was way worse when i first submitted it, but it is good enough for like anything now (almost all HM can be done with this)

As for changing stuff, you can bring extra hexes, but you don't need extra damage or something.

Daesu · Dec 25, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Healer henchies can work if you already have sufficient protection from your character+heroes. This means you would not require as much heals from runeless Mhenlo as some other, more damage-inclined, builds do. So use healer hench if you want, they would balance out one way or another in tougher HM areas.

Robbins · Dec 28, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

[Discord MM;OANDUslfSxMVBoBKg4B1DBEVVA]
Actually has 16 Death 10 Soul 9 Prot & blood stained boots
uses Woe Spreader so Health = 570 e = 40

[Discord Hex/Condition;OABDUshnS2BMixM1BICIBVBVVA]
6th skill is Barbs don't know what happened
12 Death 10 Curses 8 Soul uses Woe Spreader
Health = 630 e = 42
Using conditions that don't require flesh is important imo.

[Discord Support/Prot;OANDUslfSxMfBoBKgaR1DBEVVA]
12 Death 11 Soul 9 Prot uses Prot Staff e+15 Ench+20% H+30 HSR 20%
Health = 620 e = 45

I just hh hm, with a slightly (in my opinion) worse triple discord hero build, Blood Washes Blood, Vanquished Arborstone (I have Vanquished Arborstone Sabway (great job Sab) many times this Discord build was IMO much better and faster) and Oola's Laboratory. As you know minions are worthless in Oola's lab but this build did great.

Disclaimers start here:
My main character is [HB monk;OwYT043AZKuKHUi43ZjAZ4jQmAA]
Healing 14 Divine 13 high wep set = +15 e +30 h ench + 20% HSR 20% staff low wep set = Rod +15 -1e HSR 20% Off hand +27 -1e +30 h

This build is for hh hm. I run with 1 healer 1 prot 1 ele and 1 warrior hench.

So if your main is not a healer you probably need the resto rit parts and sense I am a healer for me doupling up on prots is great.
Also if your main has some Hex/Condition stuff you may not need so many on the Hex/Condition necro.

I am interested in comments from people who have tried this build or variations of it and comparisons of different skills that could be used to make it better. imo it rocks right now but better is... well better.

Abedeus · Dec 29, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

2 skills to inflict weakness and 2 putrid biles make me sad. You also have 2 minion spells, but why Putrid Explosion? That's counter-productive.

Robbins · Dec 29, 2008, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I'm looking for a little more help if you can. I take it you would only use one copy of Putrid Bile. Why? What would you use in place of if it? I thought that Putrid Explosion would work on a minion corpse. In thinking about this and your comment it looks like I was wrong in which case it is a bad idea. Can anyone confirm whether Putrid Explosion does or does not work on a dead bone minion? I checked Wiki under minions, putrid explosion and corpse and could not find an answer. What would you take in place of Putrid Explosion? Any other ideas?

MercenaryKnight · Dec 29, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Minions don't leave corpses when they die neither do vanguard sins. Wish that vanguards would leave exploitable corpses when they die, then you could have minions anywhere.

Robbins · Dec 30, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

I've seen some people using [weaken armor] in their discord builds. Do all enemies have armor?

Also, please some people who have been running discord builds post them and join the discussion about which hexes and conditions to use and why. Also what are reasons to prefer the ritualist healing skills to the monk ones? Thank you.

MercenaryKnight · Dec 30, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Yes weaken armor works on all enemies but cracked armor can only bring it down to 60. But -20 armor doesn't really matter because the only physicals hitting them will be minions and sins (if your using 6 discord heroes anyway) however if you use more physicals then it should help more.

Monk heals are usually a bit weaker because they are supposed to be buffed by divine favor (which secondaries can't get). Also, depending on the protection skills you bring (prot spirit, aegis) your not going to need as many spike heals when you have spirit light and then party heals which is what usually causes deaths. Atleast for me, the only deaths I have seemed to receive is ones where the party is taking too much damage and the ai can't heal them all. Unfortunately multiple koali pots will be dropped at the same time and thus waste most of them.

Enfeebling blood is priority condition number one. Decent aoe and recharge, as well as a great condition to weaken the enemies. I run with 6 heroes with a friend and incase we split up or play alone I split the hex/ condition on each of them. So one can have suffering and weaken armor the other can have shadow of fear and enfeebling blood. Only really useful if your going into an area that has hex or condition removals so that you can still overload them and land the discords.